I am done raiding for now

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I am done raiding for now

Postby Shootsome » September 13th, 2017, 10:53 am

Hello fellow Voidlings, I am going to start this with my intention of being done raiding with void. Over the past 2 years here while we have gone through some trials and tribulations I have never felt until more recently the direction the guild is moving in is for the worse. We lack control, we lack drive and we lack direction. I am part of that reason, so I do take my part of the responsibility for it, but it goes raid team wide. A brief overview of things I am talking about

1) Flexibility
2) Skill Level
3) Management
4) Personal

Flexibility- Its simple we are a guild that trys to avoid change at all cost it seems. We have people that aren't happy with their current spec/set up and we have voiced our drives to change or do anything to help increase personal moral with it. Personally there feels no end in sight for BM not to keep sucking and the guild is adamant in not letting me swap which is strange since it would only improve our raid team, and I am not the only one who feels this way. The other end of this is the flexibility that comes with us waiting 20 mins to have people go specs that aren't super comfortable with in order to do a fight instead of bringing an alt more well suited for the fight and environment. That includes us not just getting 4 people to get half geared rogues we feed gear to and just smashing avatar indefinitely quicker, from having to wait 20 mins to get someone to get to a spec. It feels like we are so set especially on reclears in our ways.

2) Skill Level- this one is pretty explanatory and I will be the first one to admit I am not parsing only orange anymore. Void as a whole has gone down in the progression mindset, rather it is from actual damage to people not understanding what holding DPS actually looks like. We have noticeably gone down in the actual progression mindset. We have people who aren't contributing what they need to be contributing. We have people dying every fight to things they shouldn't when they are the vital to part of the fight, me included. It feels that Void is hemorrhaging the integrity of the guild to make up for people who cannot pull their weight. This is something I do not see getting better

3) Management- It is later in the tier and we have been raiding a year straight without stopping, I don't discredit leadership for some of the people getting fed up because it happens when you spend 12 hours a week trying to slay dragons. What I do feel is wrong is there is no direction the guild takes on most fights. We have Bang calling out a fight instead of an officer on some fights. We have 0 discussion that contribute to fights for 90% of wipes and that is probably low balling the number. If you wonder why people are muting and deafening themselves its because the lack of direction and discussion we are having. Personally I feel if I say something It has 0 influence in this guild. In HFC at least people would give my suggestions a few attempts (zerg strat that worked). Now i understand most of this tier is personal responsibility but there is still time that strategies needed to be discussed or worked on. An example is working on avatar the first night and by that it was making a weak aura that I know that 3 out of the 12 don't use anyways and wasting a raid night. When saying lets not and make a fast one and get actual progression in we got nothing and half the group went muted/deafened. Management just promoted a person who knows will make half the raid angry because we don't agree with his leadership and they did it anyways.

4) Personal- While some of you guys may know that I have had some death in the family. I will be clear now, I have had 3 family members die and a good friend pass away these last 6 months. I used to find a lot of enjoyment in WoW but lately its been less and less. Some know more but I would keep this section short for a simple reason we all have our own lives and respect that from each other.

There is a lot that this guild needs to work on and until those things are completed I refuse to dread showing up to raid for 12 hours a week instead of enjoying those hours.
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Re: I am done raiding for now

Postby bubleheart » September 13th, 2017, 11:50 am

Shoots,

You will be missed, but really if you don't think we are trying to do things about any one of these you would be incorrect.

1) Flexibility - You wanted to play DH. I understood this and actually have been trying to make that a reality. The fact is we have 2 DH's right now and in a post complaining about composition, I think you would understand that 3 DHs might be a bit excessive. However, Daze had expressed intrest in moving to his warrior after Tomb which would open a spot. Secondly, you are acting as if 3 rogues would have made Avatar an easy fight. It is not, and instead of people trying to find solutions like we always have - people instead just decided to make up their minds that without 4 rogues the fight was unkillable and we should just stop. This directly led to the current mindset of a few people. The people not liking the direction were mostly the ones causing the harm and accelerating the fall moreso into that direction.

2) Skill level - While I understand some of this with doing mechanics, it is not an easy fix. I think we have a very good group, but that focus is not on par with what is should be. Due to what, I can only speculate but trying to fix this is not easy. We need to make people accountable, but I tried my best to let people be adult and not children in a game. I did not think doing what you should be doing was a hard direction. Once you know the fight, you know what you should do in terms of damage, holding damage, etc. Mistakes on that stuff should be minimal, but in a tier with personal responsibility at an all time high it can lead to big problems. This was an underestimation on my part.

3) Management - We have had a HUGE hole to fill with Stabbay leaving after last tier as he filled in raid leading. Kris - who also raid lead - has been going through some shit as have I and I feel on most of the bosses (minus Avatar) we have usually had a solid plan. We have tried our best and people have stepped up (Bang and Daze) and I appreciate that. And we do have discussions but no one says anything half the time. It's like talking to a blank room. We even post about stuff on the forums, but people just sit on discord or don't read it. I wonder how many people actually read what Bang posted in the avatar thread? Instead of trying to make the problem better or providing a solution within our means and not just saying "need more rogues or we can't do this", we devolve into headset muting because "this is not how I would do it". I agree Avatar has not been my best showing, but honestly I have more important things on my mind. We should have stepped up sooner, but my post in the Avatar thread explains what we are going through. Also to toss Pag into this is just silly. The guy has done a lot to help the guild and deserved to be considered and then promoted to try and help us sort out these problems. It was understood that certain people are not the biggest fan, but I felt - along with the other officers - that we needed more help and Pag has shown us that he can provide that help. Whatever differences you may have with him, I feel that you are blowing that promotion out of proportion because you personally do not like him. I have partnered with people I did not like at the time (Shane), but those situations worked out. I cannot make everyone happy and to put that in at the end seems a bit shallow.

4) Personal - I did not know and am sorry to hear that. It is understandable you feel like you do and I am sorry for your loss.

Putting aside point 4, I feel your post is a post of someone who is very unempathetic to the situation. We do have issues, but I can only do so much and I cannot make people do something in a game they should be playing for fun. That is what made Void great in that people wanted to be here and do stuff. Now we have some toxicity in people/raids that affects the entire raid and just sapping the fun and good times from people. I understand people are frustrated, but I always have thought to put myself in that person's shoes and see what they are possibly doing. More than half of these problems are problems that take time and patience, and by and far are mostly self-inflicted. Long tiers and grind does not help, but neither does the toxicity that exists in our raids sometimes. Instead of trying to find fault, try and help or ask if help is needed or at very least not try and exacerbate the problem. I need to be better about asking for help as well. I try to be upfront with you guys and I expected that in return. If you had a problem, say something.

Anyways, I appreciate your insight and honesty and I wish you luck and hope you get through the hard time you are going through.
Last edited by bubleheart on September 13th, 2017, 11:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: I am done raiding for now

Postby Solarian » September 13th, 2017, 12:17 pm

I think buble nails all the key points very well so I won't add on any more to that.

As for RL stuff I'm sorry to hear you are going through tough times, and i sincerely hope you are able to persevere and overcome it.

Your bm antics will be missed!
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Re: I am done raiding for now

Postby Shootsome » September 13th, 2017, 12:20 pm

Flexibility- that response is kind of silly for avatar, it would make the fight easier which is the whole point. Its not that it makes it easy its that the guild chooses to go harder routes for no reason, I have never seen a higher tiered guild say hey this will make this way easier lets not do that. The other part I was eluding to is stuff like daze not being allowed to swap to warrior or using ball as the flex healer. There is a lot that could be gained by our guilds flexability.

Management- I think even when Stabbay was in we were suffering from the lack of a Shane type role. And I do understand that Kris and you are having life things happening but those should have been addressed 5 months ago when it started. We are deep in a tier now and it feels pretty bad. I also don't mind working with Pag, I have nothing against the dude in that sense. But working and leadership is 2 extremely different things and as we have pointed out in the past with various messages to our core I know a lot of us don't feel good with him leading. I will be honest, after what he did in HFC me personally will never let him lead me. I actually like the guy in a lot of ways, and I have a few friends in the Marines that were that way, of liked the dude but won't work under him. I feel that to be the same. You say it you know why we aren't the biggest fan but you guys do it anyways without consulting veteran players. I Know he does a lot for the guild I don't take that from him but again leadership is a completely different story.

Why do you think we mute and deafen ourselves? We never had this issue before cause we were a unit working together but it doesn't feel that way and I don't blame the long tier for that.
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Re: I am done raiding for now

Postby Vadnee » September 13th, 2017, 12:42 pm

+1 to what Solarian said in my book

I would note that what Shootsome mentions in point 2 has a lot of conflicting information. You mention not parsing only orange, but also point towards people not holding DPS for the sake of progression. I know it's been said over and over, but this just goes to show again that there's a misconception that having an orange parse --> better progression/kills. I heavily disagree with that, and I think that you saying you don't have the "top parses" any more isn't exactly a tie into why progression might be lacking. That's a mindset that really needs to be adjusted in a lot of people, including myself.

I can point a finger at myself on the Mistress kill last night, for example - I parsed better than Kris for HPS, but he ultimately did more in keeping individual members of the raid alive because of flash heal/Serenity spam on individuals who were dangerously low. For example, when the raid is at 75% health and there are a few people in the dangerous low's of 20%, he'll flash heal spam to help those 20% people actually in risk of dying, but his HPS will suffer as a result. Meanwhile, I'm sitting there AOE healing and having better HPS for it, but not contributing as much to preventing overall raid deaths. I think that's a really great example of how the "high HPS/DPS = better progression" mentality needs to be trashed. So you don't parse orange, but hold DPS and help the guild progress? That's way better in my book, and something I'm definitely guilty of as well.

I also would say that complaining about lack of discussion/forward-thinking and then muting oneself seems very hypocritical in my book. To do that, and then discuss the negative raid atmosphere, seems inconsistent. That being said, I won't argue that there isn't a lack of discussion/forward-thinking from everyone in the first place, and I think I can point the finger at myself there again as an example. Buble, Solarian, Feldaze, Pag, Bang, scumbog Rondy - all of them are contributing a significant amount more than the rest of us in boss discussion/threads/log delving, and then the rest of us bitch when we think we can do better. We're a team, and I legitimately enjoy playing with this team and killing baddies together. Part of killing baddies together involves putting some discussion/work in on HOW to kill said baddies, and I think that's an area in which a lot of us - myself included - can improve. But, muting oneself and continuing the loop of no discussion --> get angry --> mute --> no discussion isn't the answer to how a team works. Work hard beforehand, play hard as a result. I want to kill bad angry green dudes, so let's just do that as a team.

I wasn't around for HFC, so I have no idea what you're referencing there tbh. That being said, it's clear a change needs to be made to help the guild move forward. Having someone who puts a lot of work in already, who is one of the few people that is WILLING and WANTS to put in more work...I don't see how that isn't a viable option in helping the guild progress.

I've really enjoyed playing with you jp, and I'm sad to see you go. I'm very sorry to hear about your family. I'll miss talking about stupid bike shit and using you as a prime :whoisthis?: meme target. You were a great contribution to the team and it's upsetting to see you want to leave. You'll be missed!
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Re: I am done raiding for now

Postby nullifer » September 13th, 2017, 1:05 pm

One point I would like to bring up that I haven't seen mentioned so far is how prepared people are when they come to raid. When we are progressing on a fight and for whatever reason we have to bring someone in who wasn't in for the majority of progression we shouldn't have to hold their hand the entire time. I understand that watching videos isn't exactly the same as actually doing the mechanics but even so that's not a good enough reason to not watch the videos while you are on the bench or maybe even just stick around and discord and watch bangs stream to know what we are actually doing. Please stop

In regards to what you guys have been saying about playing well I don't think JP was referring only to damage/healing parses but the overall failure to do mechanics properly and what can be poorly described as "scumbaggery". This is a huge problem for this guild and it has been for the majority of the expansion with it only getting worse. I know that we keep saying no one cares about your parse and all that but as a former scumbag I know that almost never stops me unless i'm called out by name.
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Re: I am done raiding for now

Postby bubleheart » September 13th, 2017, 1:13 pm

As to what happened in HFC, I really do not know or remember so I apologize for my ignorance. However, I will point to the Shane scenario exactly. I said I would NEVER work with him or let him back in the guild after MoP. I let him back in for WoD when Kris and Blz convinced me to give him a shot. I would say that worked out very well, as I think we both agree he was a great officer.

Point is that times change. People change. To be completely honest I was not the biggest fan of Pag back in the day, but he has consistently shown me differently since then. We gave him a 2nd chance and he has proven what I thought about him wrong on many occasions. To not give that a chance or try and tap that resource seems like a mistake. I don't think we rushed this decision, nor do I think at this time it is the incorrect one. I probably should not be as transparent as I am, but I feel given the example it helps to see that we actually do think about things for a while before acting.

The people I let into this guild I try to treat as equal in some offshoot family type thing. I would try and help each and every one of you and am glad to have you all around. I honestly try and have as little drama as possible, as I view it as a waste of time given what we are doing. Granted some of it is unavoidable, but it should always be minimal things that are correctable. Seeing things like this or how we have been acting in raid recently is disheartening as it is in my nature to expect the same respect back. Not a "he is GM, he the big boss" type respect, but a general respect for a fellow person and player and towards the guild and people in it. To try and do the best we can with what we have as we are all trying to accomplish the same thing.
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Re: I am done raiding for now

Postby Vadnee » September 13th, 2017, 1:13 pm

To Tanner -
Oooh yeah, that first paragraph I definitely agree with.

nullifer wrote: In regards to what you guys have been saying about playing well I don't think JP was referring only to damage/healing parses but the overall failure to do mechanics properly and what can be poorly described as "scumbaggery". This is a huge problem for this guild and it has been for the majority of the expansion with it only getting worse. I know that we keep saying no one cares about your parse and all that but as a former scumbag I know that almost never stops me unless i'm called out by name.


Okay, valid. So what's the fix for that? We could go through wclogs after and call people out by name, as you suggest. Is that viable? (Legitimate question, I'm unsure)

bubleheart wrote: Seeing things like this or how we have been acting in raid recently is disheartening as it is in my nature to expect the same respect back. Not a "he is GM, he the big boss" type respect, but a general respect for a fellow person and player and towards the guild and people in it. To try and do the best we can with what we have as we are all trying to accomplish the same thing.


I really want to emphasize how much I agree with this - we're a team that has fun together, and that requires mutual respect. You don't have to like someone to respect them. I've played with people before that I disliked, and it doesn't make me hate raiding. A bad attitude can, though. Let's put that aside and do our best to kill shit instead.

Also, Shoots - sorry for derailing your thread a little bit. I wasn't sure of a better place to respond.
Last edited by Vadnee on September 13th, 2017, 1:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: I am done raiding for now

Postby bubleheart » September 13th, 2017, 1:15 pm

I also agree with you Tanner. We tried to approach of being subtle and hoping people would clear it up on their own, but I think it is obvious that is not working. A more direct approach is needed.
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Re: I am done raiding for now

Postby DMX » September 13th, 2017, 8:02 pm

I hope whatever you decide to do in your free time is more enjoyable. Take care shoots.
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Re: I am done raiding for now

Postby Yesterdaze » September 14th, 2017, 1:22 am

I am glad I got to know you homie, hmu anytime for real and best of luck till then!!
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Re: I am done raiding for now

Postby StarDust » September 14th, 2017, 8:44 am

Didnt know about the personal issues, that really sucks and my thoughts go out to you. If there is anything I can do let me know. Otherwise I expect to see you in M+'s!
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Re: I am done raiding for now

Postby Shaeck » September 14th, 2017, 7:17 pm

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<3 you Shoots
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