Sales Runs

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Sales Runs

Postby Kris » January 14th, 2016, 1:45 pm

Spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

I'd really prefer to keep them on Tuesdays and Wednesdays. Lets make sure we're not stacking Tier Tokens so people don't get mad.
I've seen people selling M Arch for as low as 500k.

List of people interested in Arch Mount:

4/12 - Lumin - 1.25 million (arch/blackhand - both mounts)
4/19 - Xiaolien - blackhand mount - 200K
4/26 - TheDemise - 1 million (13/13M clear and mount) | Cosmo - blackhand mount 200k
5/3 - Balsulda - 1 million - (13/13M clear and mount)
5/10 - Wozzie - 1.25 million - full clear
5/17 - Huntre - 1.25million - full clear
WhoaStart (maybe) - 1 million - has to transfer a guild



Prices I found came around:

M. Archimonde: 500k-800k
13/13m Clear: ~1M-1.6M
12/13m Clear: 500k-800k
H Arch: 50k
13/13h clear: 200k-300k
Last edited by Shaeck on May 1st, 2016, 8:59 pm, edited 18 times in total.
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Re: Sales Runs

Postby Pagulayan » January 14th, 2016, 4:44 pm

What would the plan be to do with the gold then otherwise? Split it among people who attended raid? Guild bank it? 50/50? 60/40? I'm more or less fine with whatever, I'm sure at this point we should be fine to split the majority among raiders. Not sure I like the 10% to the person who finds the buyer only because on the off chance people actually do get motivated we will essentially have to low ball each other so the person wants to buy from us. If Terias, Null, and I all post in trade we are looking to sell runs and someone replies to all 3 of us then with the price ranges listed here we'd basically have to bid against each other to be the seller. You are already benefiting from finding a buyer by getting a part of the cut just as the rest of the raid is. Really I'd think it would be something officers should do. We are on farm so there is no fight strategies to come up with, recruitment is closed so no one has to do that, we roll for gear so there is no loot distribution to do, and considering we only have 20 people on each week there really isn't even much work to do in terms of setting group comps or figuring who sits. Finding buyers seems like about the only guild management that needs done at this point outside of a 3-4 hour raid period each week.
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Re: Sales Runs

Postby Shaeck » January 14th, 2016, 5:13 pm

Sorry I've been busy making sure everyone is planning on showing up for our 2 hour raid.

Also, filing complaints for people that they want to raid LESS. Selling will most definitely result in longer raids.
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Re: Sales Runs

Postby bubleheart » January 14th, 2016, 5:26 pm

We all took a long holiday and are getting back in the swing of things. We will get this sorted, but as Shane did mention selling will require a bit more time on our part.
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Re: Sales Runs

Postby Pagulayan » January 14th, 2016, 5:36 pm

I knew you'd say something along those lines. I'd be curious what you are having to do to get people to show up throughout the week. Also, if it's such an issue just do Manno and Arc and not do the first stuff, or add 1-2 dps to the roster. Anything there would help solve those problems. The main reason people want to raid less is because there aren't any more rewards for it. The tiny % chance at a wf item or socket isn't enough for most people. The healers can manipulate the strats and comps to go for ranks but as a dps it's not reasonable for most of us to try to get rank ones with all the speed kills going on. Bang's parses look great sometimes until you look at wcl and see rank one is 40k ahead of him because of all of the BS rng of mages and how prevalent they are in speed kills. Not allowing geared contributing alts and not having sales leaves such a small amount of incentive to attend, and even less to want to stay. I'm happy to try to farm the rest of people's mounts and I'd be down to sell a full clear with everyone getting 50k at the end of it, but wiping 3 times on Iskar for the chance at an offspec trinket is not how I'd prefer to spend my evening. Getting back to you being busy making sure people show up, showing up should be implied. If you have people who won't show up you really need to recruit more. I don't want to see anyone quit or leave but it's not exactly a Sparty mentality to make showing up to raids mandatory. It's like that for everyone here. The old incentive to full clear was to farm mounts for people, Blizzard took that off the table by allowing us to skip ahead. Maybe even try doing it like we did Foundry and start at the beginning because you know once the last boss dies and the mount goes out people want to leave. There really should be some give and take with it. Some compromise. I am not trying to cause an argument but I'd be extremely surprised if I'm the only one that has any of these thoughts.


The "I knew you'd say something along those lines." was directed at Shane's comment, just to be clear. Not Buble's.
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Re: Sales Runs

Postby Shaeck » January 14th, 2016, 6:07 pm

We can't base our roster around farm so adding 1-2 for farm's sake will only lead to displeasure come Legion. Yes Buble is right that it was the holiday's but I expect this coming week that everyone will be on (if you can't, actually post ASAP rather than just not telling anyone or sending us a text).
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Re: Sales Runs

Postby simetrik » January 14th, 2016, 6:15 pm

Just seconding that people probably want to raid less because there's very little reward for it. If anything sales runs would make people want to log on and spend time raiding. Personally, I don't care about the proposed cut for finding a buyer, but I think the undercutting issue would matter to a significant part of the people who are making an effort to show up on time to every raid. I don't think the burden of finding a buyer should necessarily be placed entirely on the officers, but it is true that if anyone would be finding buyers, they would be doing more work for the guild then (most of) the officers are right now, which I fundamentally dislike (though I acknowledge it is sometimes a reality of farm).

So, some reasonable gbank/raider split (don't know enough about guild finances to have a reasonable opinion), and everyone does what they can to find buyers, for no personal reward over anyone else, is what I would support the most.
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Re: Sales Runs

Postby Hardiam » January 15th, 2016, 2:20 am

If you just define set prices in which there is no flexibility, you wouldn't have to worry about undercutting. There should be a decent amount of buyers before you have to worry about negotiating.
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Re: Sales Runs

Postby Kris » January 15th, 2016, 2:47 pm

Split would probably be 10% gbank 90% raiders.
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Re: Sales Runs

Postby Pagulayan » January 15th, 2016, 7:12 pm

Hardiam wrote:If you just define set prices in which there is no flexibility, you wouldn't have to worry about undercutting. There should be a decent amount of buyers before you have to worry about negotiating.


That's true, but it comes back to finding buyers then. We can set it to 500k for an Arc kill with no mount but are we really better off not selling it at all rather than taking 400k, or 450k? I would agree set prices are a great idea but when we have such a limited number of potential buyers it's difficult to expect to have sales with any regularity if we are going to be too steadfast on pricing. If someone has 400k and wants the kill vs us killing it 30 seconds faster because we don't have a carry in, I would still rather take the 400k. You have to be careful, I realize, with negotiating because if word gets out it can be had cheap you will never sell it for a high price. And of course at some point the price wouldn't be worth it at all. Splitting 150k 24 ways obviously isn't a good deal for anyone but the buyer, and as all salesman motto goes "FUCK THE BUYER!" We need to try to get as much as possible.
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Re: Sales Runs

Postby Pagulayan » January 15th, 2016, 7:40 pm

I talked to a friend of mine who is on my old server, one similar to what Laughing Skull is from the standpoint that there is really only one guild that figures to be able to sell these things before the prepatch when you can pug it. He says they have been trying to sell 11/13 mythic clears for a million gold for 2 weeks now and have had buyers both weeks. They are doing heroic Arc for 50k, the only other decent guild is undercutting them in trade to 40k as we speak. This server doesn't even have a second guild as good as that one though. I realize this is tremendously useful information but it's something to go off of since I don't think any of us have a really solid grasp of what a legit price would be. I am going to try to talk to an officer or something in the guild if I can find one. This guy is more of a peon. He also asked if the druid "1arm manny" is in this guild. I don't know for sure why he asked or what that name means. But I'm hoping there is a deep dark story to be heard.
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Re: Sales Runs

Postby Terias » January 15th, 2016, 10:27 pm

Putting groups for this stuff together was a huge pain in the ass, which is why I stopped doing them.

It takes all day to get people interested on the day-of, and if you try to recruit for earlier in the week people no-show and you have to compensate by basically getting a backup person on who understands they won't get in if the original person shows up - plus you need to make lists and schedules. Most people want to haggle the price down (or wait you out until your guild sells mounts 100-200k) - so you'll need to keep track of reduced rate people.

Getting a decent cut for putting the groups together is definitely a good move.


10/10/80 is good. 10% guild, 10% seller(s), 80% guild (seller included again) - ensures seller(s) don't get screwed on small sale stuff. Casa's spreadsheets support weighted splitting so you can do things like split sellers based on what they sold easily. Easily done by just using a second spreadsheet for the sellers splits.

We should setup a thread or subforum with editing privileges for the people that want to set these up. If multiple people want to make money on that, it will ensure they have a schedule planned on with what's already sold. Also it will keep things like Shaeck says from happening where someone sends a tell to someone else in the guild later (the person that posts gets the sale) - and let our sellers coordinate price ranges/fixed pricing/find the highest paying person each week.

We don't really need to raid for loot anymore - we're kind of just getting mounts for everyone and keeping the roster active so people don't bail before Legion. Tuesday our guild plan should be to kill mannoroth and archimonde. That's it.

Leave the rest of the day open to people planning sells. They get to decide what time Tuesday we're selling things (if they have a buyer lined up for raid start on blackhand, we do that first, they'll post/plan it). If they sell mythic highmaul clears one week we'll do that, if they sell a mythic foundry clear another week we'll do that.

We'll need a thread to coordinate if multiple people start doing the selling so that we can ensure there's no conflicts on limited resources (1 mythic lockout, 1 blackhand mount, etc) or time (no one tells someone to be on at raid start when we're selling a full mythic hfc that day to someone else).

10% (+ normal split) is a decent cut though.

Specific things like "how much do we sell x for" should probably be worked out on a different thread I think, that stuff fluxuates a lot, and I feel like fixed pricing misses you a lot of opportunities. A lot of what I did was tell people who would undercut by 20%+ "We can do that, but I can't guarantee you the spot this week, you can be our backup buyer though."
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Re: Sales Runs

Postby Pagulayan » January 16th, 2016, 12:02 am

What Terias is saying sounds monumentally more complicated than necessary. Though it does go back to the value of having 1 or maybe 2 people handling sales. Even if multiple people want to spam for buyers, they should have someone to talk to (like Shane or Kris) that handles all of the final details. We are the only potential sellers really for the foreseeable future so I don't think we need to get too carried away with bending to others schedules too much or anything. I would prefer we just set a price for Mythic HFC and I guess the Blackhand mount and just do them Tuesday if we have a buyer, no buyer no clear. Not a big deal. Selling the first 11 shouldn't take that long and shouldn't be overwhelmingly hard to do. Then we can just do Manno and Arc after the sale and be done for the week. Realistically we should have no problem clearing 11/13 with a carry and then clearing Manno and Arc in one raid night. I also still stand by the idea of not giving the person finding the sales anything extra. Someone come up with a little Void sales macro and if someone is on and bored they can throw it in trade from time to time. If you get a response we know the prices or know who to have them get in contact with. I just don't like the idea of people competing for buyers.
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Re: Sales Runs

Postby Kris » January 16th, 2016, 1:09 am

Pagulayan wrote:What Terias is saying sounds monumentally more complicated than necessary. Though it does go back to the value of having 1 or maybe 2 people handling sales. Even if multiple people want to spam for buyers, they should have someone to talk to (like Shane or Kris) that handles all of the final details. We are the only potential sellers really for the foreseeable future so I don't think we need to get too carried away with bending to others schedules too much or anything. I would prefer we just set a price for Mythic HFC and I guess the Blackhand mount and just do them Tuesday if we have a buyer, no buyer no clear. Not a big deal. Selling the first 11 shouldn't take that long and shouldn't be overwhelmingly hard to do. Then we can just do Manno and Arc after the sale and be done for the week. Realistically we should have no problem clearing 11/13 with a carry and then clearing Manno and Arc in one raid night. I also still stand by the idea of not giving the person finding the sales anything extra. Someone come up with a little Void sales macro and if someone is on and bored they can throw it in trade from time to time. If you get a response we know the prices or know who to have them get in contact with. I just don't like the idea of people competing for buyers.


I don't think it sounds complicated at all. Putting these things together, dealing with people constantly trying to haggle, scheduling it, is kind of a pain in the ass. I work enough, and manage enough at my real job, I don't want to log onto WoW and deal with 10 real ID requests from people who want to buy M Arch for 100k gold and haggle with the 10 of them for an hour at midnight to find the one that might want to do it for 800k. I also don't have time to sit and spam trade chat since I'm at work or school for 80 hours of my week.

I think an incentive system is great for people who want to spend their real life time outside of raid to spam trade chat, and organize and schedule potential buyers. 90%-10% split @500k =22.5k/person 10/10/80 @500k = 20k/person. If it gets us more buyers, and spreads some of the burden, I think its a good idea.
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Re: Sales Runs

Postby Casa » January 16th, 2016, 2:39 am

Maybe the incentive can just be a double share, nice and simple.
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Re: Sales Runs

Postby Terias » January 16th, 2016, 4:46 am

Pagulayan wrote:What Terias is saying sounds monumentally more complicated than necessary. Though it does go back to the value of having 1 or maybe 2 people handling sales. Even if multiple people want to spam for buyers, they should have someone to talk to (like Shane or Kris) that handles all of the final details. We are the only potential sellers really for the foreseeable future so I don't think we need to get too carried away with bending to others schedules too much or anything. I would prefer we just set a price for Mythic HFC and I guess the Blackhand mount and just do them Tuesday if we have a buyer, no buyer no clear. Not a big deal. Selling the first 11 shouldn't take that long and shouldn't be overwhelmingly hard to do. Then we can just do Manno and Arc after the sale and be done for the week. Realistically we should have no problem clearing 11/13 with a carry and then clearing Manno and Arc in one raid night. I also still stand by the idea of not giving the person finding the sales anything extra. Someone come up with a little Void sales macro and if someone is on and bored they can throw it in trade from time to time. If you get a response we know the prices or know who to have them get in contact with. I just don't like the idea of people competing for buyers.



What I'm trying to tell you from my selling experience is that it isn't super complicated, it just turns into a mess really quickly when you try and sell a handful of things each week, everything has a different (variable) price, and you have to deal with all of the shit from both sides. I wasn't just dealing with buyers - I had to let everyone know when we're raiding what (the officers and the buyers), what order, what amount we were selling at, collect money, confirm payment, calculate shares, distribute money, and on top of all that - find buyers. A lot of those steps get a bit complicated when you start arranging things a week or two (or more) in advance. There's a lot more to sell than the garrosh days, and people aren't lining up down the street for the non-mount clears we're selling like they were for the garrosh mount.

"Just have Shane or Kris" deal with people isn't going to happen, no one wants to do deal with that stuff - Kris and Shane don't want to deal with that stuff.

The people that handle the details shouldn't be the officers anyway - they should be the sellers, when I was selling the biggest thing that made my time easier was not having to communicate with the officers every time I had a sell lined up, I just told the person how much and when. On Tuesday if I had sells, I decided what we did first to get the sells out of the way, and I told the officers who'd be coming in. Way easier than getting even more people involved, or directing people to an officer whenever they log in.

You just put the sale down in a forum post and the guild knows what we're selling that week.

Also, a 10% split is nothing, I wouldn't manage sells for less than a 30% split. That shit was a pain in the ass, I'd rather just buy gold.

Maybe the incentive can just be a double share, nice and simple.


I would say triple comes closer to the original intent, but yes, with your spreadsheet just multiplying their value work fine.
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Re: Sales Runs

Postby Pagulayan » January 16th, 2016, 8:29 am

It seems like most of the concerns from your first paragraph would be addressed just by having the officers hammer out details and have the "sellers" just be advertisers. You find people who are interested in Blackhand and a fresh clear and then the officer sorts out the finer details. Final prices, which week, ect. Then you take out all of that back and forth you are talking about. I don't think there are really a handful of things to sell, we can sell the Blackhand mount which would be from like 8:30 to 8:40 and then we sell HFC in some capacity. I don't think we are going to get the value from selling something like Highmaul to make people want to go do that in addition to clearing HFC. "collect money, confirm payment, calculate shares" is a 10 second process for all 3 steps. Open trade, get gold, divide number by people in raid. One of the challenges with selling mentioned is the communication back and forth between the officers and the seller trying to arrange times and whatnot, just having the officer deal with all of that from the get go fixes that problem.

If selling is such a hassle that no one is willing or able to do it for just their share as a guild member in the sale then we are doing the whole thing wrong. If we can't find anyone for the Blackhand mount we don't do Blackhand, if we can't find anyone for the first 11 bosses, we only do the last 2. There is no urgency to sell. If you would rather buy gold than there is no reason for you to be a part of it, if you happen to want to full clear and would like some in game currency then find a buyer. If no one decides to step up and find buyers I know several guild members aren't going to mind 1 hour raid weeks, especially with D3 season starting. That will keep everyone extremely busy at least until I finish typing.
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Re: Sales Runs

Postby simetrik » January 16th, 2016, 10:22 am

Terias wrote:"Just have Shane or Kris" deal with people isn't going to happen, no one wants to do deal with that stuff - Kris and Shane don't want to deal with that stuff.


Isn't the point of being an officer that you organize stuff that "normal" guild members don't want to do? I get that this is extracurricular (compared to normal raiding), and I'm really not trying to antagonize anyone here, but it seems crazy to completely ignore the current leadership structure while setting up something that would benefit from having some management.

I do like the idea of having all sales be scheduled for Tuesday, since it (hopefully) eliminates the attendance problem. From what you guys are saying, getting people to commit on off hours took the most time for the sale coordinators.
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Re: Sales Runs

Postby Shaeck » January 16th, 2016, 10:58 am

I am OK with setting up and doing end boss sells (mythic arch/blackhand) or even full clears where the prices are set in stone. I am also OK with setting up heroic arch kills if we have at least a handful of buyers (preferably 5 or more). However I do not like the micromanagement of people that want various bosses unless we do make a set of prices for each boss that never changes. Then at that point, lets say we sell mythic mannoroth for 75k, do we split that up and everyone gets a measly portion of gold or do we just throw it all in the gbank.
I was all over sell runs when we were 10man, however with 25 people I feel like the reward needs to be worth the potential extra effort.
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Re: Sales Runs

Postby Kris » January 16th, 2016, 12:07 pm

simetrik wrote:
Terias wrote:"Just have Shane or Kris" deal with people isn't going to happen, no one wants to do deal with that stuff - Kris and Shane don't want to deal with that stuff.


Isn't the point of being an officer that you organize stuff that "normal" guild members don't want to do? I get that this is extracurricular (compared to normal raiding), and I'm really not trying to antagonize anyone here, but it seems crazy to completely ignore the current leadership structure while setting up something that would benefit from having some management.

I do like the idea of having all sales be scheduled for Tuesday, since it (hopefully) eliminates the attendance problem. From what you guys are saying, getting people to commit on off hours took the most time for the sale coordinators.


That is also exactly what we are doing. We're organizing a system for sale runs, on which we think might most effectively bring us the most buyers/gold.

I just don't understand the "let officers do it" for this particular thing. Do you want me to spam trade chat, post and bump multiple forums, and deal with all the incurring RealID requests? I already spend 80+ hours of my week doing work and school related things. The guild bank has 2M gold. The guild is fine, we're ready for the next expansion. Most nights I'm only on from 11pm-12am, with the exception of raid nights.

Finding and scheduling buyers isn't something you need us to do. Its something that can be easily delegated to certain individuals that are interested in handling it.

What point are you and Pag debating here? Whats the downside to the incentive system? The ~2.5k-5k gold you lose from the sale run? The people competing for sales and turning against each other imploding the guild or causing unnecessary strife? What exactly is the downside that you foresee?

The positive things I hope for is: More buyers because of more overall exposure, less work for more people, and faster response time for interested buyers.
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